A guest post by Nisht In Shabbos Geredt
Here a intresting take on the trooper scandal.
Bloggers and commentators are truly bothered why the Gedolim haven't come out to publicly condemn trooper, yet when dealing with Rabbi Natan (then Nosson) Slifkin the objection was instant.
Simply put, the slifkin saga was a totally different issue. With Slifkin, the problem with his books weren't that he is a kofer or ganev, rather, it was the content within which that they found to be offensive. Upon realizing the influence on it's reader they immediately issued a ban condemning the "book".
Indeed, there are many books of kofrim that they never banned like the ones authored by James Kugel. Since they find it ineffective, they don't make regular rounds condemning individuals for speaking lashon hora or not washing negel vaser.
Point to be made here is that the Gedolim aren't here to police individuals who don't strictly follow Halacha. So when does a ban come in to the picture, you ask? The answer is simple. When its a hashkafik issue and affects the klal, thats where its needed, but when it's an individual which everyone agrees on his wrongdoing it isn't necessary.
No, Agudas Yisrael is not the UN.
My (Yosef) comment:
NISG writes that the reason for the lack of bans on books authored by James Kugel is because they find it ineffective.
I don't think so. I don't even think these Rabbonim ever heard of DH or Bible Criticism, let alone James Kugel.
In any case, where do you find any recent ban being effective. On the contrary.
He does make some good points. Namely, that Rabbonim don't issue ban and statements on certain obvious things. Does anyone really need confirmation that these alleged deeds are wrong?
An argument can be made on these Rabbonim who had previous relationships with him. Yet, I don't find it totally proper for a Rav who got funding from him to openly condemn him. He doesn't have to laud him, but there is still reason for hakaros hatov.
BTW, is Kugel a kofer? Probably, I assume.
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8 comments:
Actually Kugel is an excellent example of why I disagree with NISG. He labels himself as Orthodox. He works for an Orthodox institution. He caused quite a controvery at YU by speaking there. So one could ask: why isn't he in cherem?
Now the answer could be because DH isn't a big issue in the Chareidi community while competed views over the age of the Earth is, hence the extra attention given to Rav Sliffkin.
But here's my main disagreement: No, Gedolim don't go around banning ordinary folks who speak loshon horo, etc.
But this Rav was not "ordinary folks". At the same time that he was criticizing and demeaning other rabbonim in the name of these "Gedolim", he was engaging in despicable behaviour. The revelation of this has created a chilul HaShem that has given great strength to the arguments of the Oisvorfs against us. It's one thing if Fishel Pisherstein in Flatbush gets caught sleeping around, quite another for a person who is trying to set the standards for conversion for the entire frum velt to be taped doing it.
Thus just as Rav Sliffkin was banned not because of the book, per se, but because of who he was, people are asking why Rav Tropper is suddenly afforded every benefit of the doubt?
It' not that he was given the benefit of the doubt, rather the rabbanim aren't afraid that trooper scandals will become a mainstream practice by all chareidi rabbis, so therefore they don't see the need to condemn. Unlike with slifkin. Btw what you are doing to fishel pisherstein is outright Loshon horah, be careful with what you post. Or else, guess what? You'll be harshly condemned. Now that's scary.
Nah, I asked Fishel when I passed him on the street (guess where the nudnik was going!) if I could post about him. Mamash.
Sorry mr ironheart (literaly) , please accept my apology, nothing personal.
"a person who is trying to set the standards for conversion for the entire frum velt to be taped doing it."
That quite a statement. Many will disagree.
"people are asking why Rav Tropper is suddenly afforded every benefit of the doubt?"
Maybe because of the money, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. Think about it.
BTW, I know Fishel, but its really Fred, since his geirus was long nullified by you-know-who.
Tropper isnt someone who had influence, and may continue to do so in the future , and therefore need to be condemned? He wa shead of a major institution for geirus, plus a rosh yeshiva (albeit a small yeshiva). His influence may have extended his actual position, but the fact is he wa sinfluential.
If you want to claim Slifkin was banned because of his potential influence, Tropper should have been banned for his corruption because of his influence.
Troppers Yeshiva is basically nonexistent, about ten bachurim from broken homes.
His institution was his own creation for power. His influence came from his access to money.
The money is gone for now. So is his influence.
In any case was he attempting to influene his students in following his derech in hilchos arayis? Perhaps not. Now, in the rabbanims point of view slifkin did try to influence his idealogy to the readers of his books. So it's easy to distinguish on were the condemning gets merit, besides the point slifkin wasn't condemned it's was just a matter of his books being banned, a slight difference.
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